Lori

If we are to follow Jesus’ example we must be re-made. Undone and wrapped anew. Inspected and rebuilt. It is passive. It is not the work of educators, attorneys, and salesmen. It is not even the work of a friend.

For, “by His doing you are in Christ Jesus…”

You will recall that Bible school is for Christians (checking an application reveals churched-friendly questions); hence your statement is valid about “apologetics” being for Christians to defend an existing belief system.

I would probably hold to aspects of presuppositionalism as well as very minor fideism, but either way I try to avoid giving it a name because I don’t want to imply that I believe anything other than exactly what I say.

Regarding Mr. Iverson or Mr. Sanchez: I am not looking for proof, but there are a few people at Grab a Brew the first Tuesday of every month who are. If Sanchez, Iverson, or even Josh McDowell were to come out sometime and present their case, I guarantee two things: 1) that they would leave frustrated, and 2) that they would not make any converts. There are much deeper reasons than science that those people do not believe, and so it is diversionary to address something that is not the root cause of unbelief. We may be able to defeat their minds but we will probably not win their hearts. And God cares nothing for intellectual assent if it is not backed by faith, hope and love.

If there’s one thing I have learned in my two years out of Emmaus, it’s that there is usually a big difference between the people you read about in a textbook and the people you meet in real life. I didn’t become a presuppositionalist because I studied all the historical standpoints on faith and chose that one as the best; I became a presuppositionalist because it is first of all consistent with what I read in the Bible about faith, and secondly because it is consistent with what I see in the world.

I guess my point is just that Christian Evidences is much better suited for a Christian to reinforce his own faith than to use it to try to convince non-Christians that they should believe. Salvation is by grace, through faith; not through acknowledgement of facts.

Spoken like a true presuppositionalist!

And Greg, of course it can be proven, just go have a serious conversation with Mr. Iverson (who without even a blush says that he has immediate and on hand proof for a young earth intelligent creation) or Mr. Sanchez who could probably make you blush for saying things like proving Scripture through archaeology is worthless…

I am very tempted to categorically deny the effectiveness of non-gospel-related apologetics (e.g. creationism, the flood, etc.), but I believe this is just a reaction to seeing people miss the point when dialoguing with non-Christians. A person can believe in a Biblical flood and still go to hell, so why do we try so hard to get them to believe in something that cannot save them?

I have some other ideas on what 1 Peter 3:15 means when it says we should be “ready to give an answer.” I’ll flesh out my thoughts and post it here sometime soon.

I agree with you 100%. I tried to choose my words carefully – I have seen many people say "I won't believe the Bible is true without proof", and to them I say, "you will never find it." But like you said, there is definitely enough evidence so that if someone truly does want to believe, they will find that the Christian worldview is historically plausible. You must always start with faith, though, however small that faith is.

To those without faith, it is foolish and we cannot convince them otherwise without the help of the Spirit.

While I basically agree with that and while I agree that it is only the Holy Spirit that can take the Word of God and make it real to us so that we are able to rely on it, I had reason to believe the Bible long before I was saved. I couldn’t prove the Bible true just as I can’t personally prove that the earth is round, but I saw much evidence that the Bible was true. It is true that we are able to understand the evidence of the Bible in a much clearer way when we start agreeing with God instead of arguing with Him. I never try to persuade people that the Bible is true any more. I just try to get them to read it so that they at least know what they are rejecting. I do not think faith has to be a total leap in the dark, some things about the message God has given us has to make sense before we can believe. But I agree that once we believe we see things differently and have all the proof we need. By faith we understand!

Good Post!

Does the reality that we will never find absolute proof of God mean that all these endeavors to prove Creationist theories and attempts to prove Scripture through archaeology simply worthless attempts?

To be blunt, should we stop wasting our time trying to prove something that can’t be proven?